Borsellino's Last Interview

Borsellino Yes, I also got to know Vittorio Mangano in the period before the maxi-trial. To be precise, between 1975 e 1980, and I remember having authorised proceedings concerning extorsion against some private clinics in Palermo. Vittorio Mangano was indicated both by Buscetta and Contorno as a "man of honour" belonging to Cosa Nostra.

Journalist "Man of honour" in which Family?

Borsellino The man of honour from Pippo Calò's family, that is to say the individual who was the head of the Porta Nuova family, which Buscetta himself had been a member of. It was established that Vittorio Mangano -  but this was already evident from a previous criminal procedure which I had authorised, as well as the so-called Spatola proceeding, begun by Falcone in the years immediately preceding the maxi-trial - that Vittorio Mangano used to live in Milan, a city which was - and this is borne out by numerous telephone interceptions - a terminal for drug trafficking, which led to the Palermo families.

Journalist And this Mangano Vittorio was a drug trafficker in Milan?

Borsellino Just to stick just to the most important probatory elements, Vittorio Mangano appears to be the interlocutor in a telephone call from Milano to Palermo, during which, conversing with another mafioso of the Palermo families, he announces or mentions the arrival of a delivery of heroin called, alternatively, in the conventional language used in phone taps, "Tshirts" or horses..

Journalist Anyway you, as an expert, can say that when Mangano talks about horses on the phone he means drugs.

Borsellino Yes, and besides, this idea that horses stands for drugs had already been presented during our pre-trial procedure and was then accepted during the hearing, to the extent that in the maxi-trial Mangano was sentenced for drug-trafficking.

Journalist Dell'Utri doesn't come into the picture here??

Borsellino Dell'Utri was not indicted in the maxi-trial, as far as I recall. I know that there are ongoing investigations concerning him and his relationship to Mangano.

Journalist In Palermo?

Borsellino Yes, I believe that there is an ongoing investigation in Palermo according to the pre-reform procedure, in the hands of the investigative judge, but I don't know the details.

Journalist Marcello Dell'Utri or Alberto Dell'Utri?

Borsellino I don't know the details, I could check the notes I took - well both Dell'Utri Marcello and Alberto, are mentioned.

Journalist The brothers?

Borsellino Yes.

Journalist The ones who work for Publitalia?

Borsellino Yes.

Journalist Because in the San Valentino investigation there is an interception between him and Marcello Dell'Utri in which they talk about horses.

Borsellino Well, in the conversation included in the maxi-trial, they talk about horses that have to be delivered to a hotel and so I really don't think that they could really have been actual horses, if someone delivers horses to me they take them to the racetrack or stables, certainly not inside the hotel.

Journalist There is a partner of Marcello Dell'Utri, a certain Filippo Rapisarda who says that this Dell'Utri was introduced to him by a member of the family of Stefano Bontade.

Borsellino Palermo is the city in Sicily where there was the highest number of Mafia families, we are talking about as many as two thousand men of honour at a certain period with very large families -  it appears that the family of Stefano Bontade had at least 200 men at a certain point, but they were families that all belonged to a sole organisation, Cosa Nostra, most of whose members knew each other, and so it is reasonable to suppose that this Rapisarda is referring to an incident that actually took place.

Journalist Have you heard about Rapisarda?

Borsellino I know about him, but I have never had any direct dealings with him..

Journalist Because apparently, Rapisarda, Dell'Utri, were in business with Ciancimino, through a certain Alamia.

Borsellino I knew about Alamia being in business with Ciancimino and I think that this circumstance has already emerged from trials that have already been held. As far as Rapisarda and Dell'Utri are concerned, I can't give you any particular details, as - I repeat - i wasn't personally involved in these investigations.

Journalist Doesn't it seem strange to you that certain individuals, industrialists like Berlusconi, Dell'Utri, are linked to men of honour such as Vittorio Mangano?

Borsellino At the beginning of the seventies,  Cosa Nostra too began to turn into a business enterprise, an enterprise in the sense that by moving into the drug market to an ever greater degree, to a degree that it began to monopolise this market, Cosa Nostra began to administer enormous quantities of capital, for which it naturally sought an outlet, because this capital was partly exported or deposited abroad and so it is possible to explain the close ties between members of Cosa Nostra and certain financiers who dealt with this transfer of capital.

Journalist You mean to tell me that it is normal for Cosa Nostra to be interested in Berlusconi?

Borsellino It is normal for someone who possesses a large amount of money to look for ways and means of using this money, both from the point of view of recycling and that of making it earn more.

Journalist Mangano was like a "pilot fish"?

Borsellino Yes, look I can tell you that he was one of those figures who act as bridges, bridge-heads of the Mafia organisation in Northern Italy.

Journalist It is said that he worked for Berlusconi?

Borsellino I don't know about that or.. even though I have to point out to you that I have a certain reluctance to say things about which I am not certain, I know that there are even some ongoing investigations into this. I do not know which documents are already public, ostensible and which must remain secret. This affair, which probably concerns his relationship to Berlusconi, is one which, whether I remember something about it or not, has nothing to do with me, I am not the judge who is dealing with it and therefore I don't not feel authorized to say anything about it.

Journalist There is an ongoing investigation?

Borsellino I know that there is an ongoing investigation.

Journalist About Mangano and Berlusconi in Palermo?

Borsellino Yes.